Ep. 77 Using Interdisciplinary Art Making to Connect with Others + Self

Art is a powerful form of connection not only with others—but a powerful way we can find and know ourselves and how we look at this world. Interdisciplinary artist, Shawna Miller, is in the virtual studio with me today. We chat about art connection mothers and connecting self, creating art to be seen in a really challenging season, wrestling with the artist identity, taking time to experience awe, defining what is sacred, and not getting bogged-down in the details in order to stay true to the ‘why’ for the work.

Shawna Miller is a wife, mother, and figurative oil painter living and working near Aspen, CO. Her current work focuses on the bittersweet beauty and weight of motherhood.

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transcript:

***This transcript is auto generated and will contain errors***

(01:35):

Hey everybody, thank you so much for being here again, being with us today. Thank you for your ears, your energy, your time in this space. It is a great honor to me that you would be here in this space with me. And today I have another super fun episode for you all. It is another episode in the artist series. So this series is all about, and I keep calling it a series, but it's probably just a new ongoing implement of this project. But this series is all about getting to know artists and creatives in and through their process and how they find and access connection with self and connection with others through it, which I like to call healing. So I have today with me Shauna Miller. Shauna Miller is actually one of my one-on-one clients, so I get to know her in a different way and it's such an absolute gift and honor of my life.

(02:25):

But Shauna is a painter among many other things beginning to venture through and in different mediums as well. But let me set up her actual bio for us and then we'll welcome her and we'll jump into the dialogue. So Shauna Miller is a wife, mother and figurative oil painter, living and working near Aspen, Colorado. Her current work focuses on the bittersweet beauty and weight of motherhood. She began oil painting seven years ago and has studied in the studio of Michelle Dahl in Hoboken, New Jersey. She grew up in Fort Collins, Colorado, but only relocated back to the state from Manhattan, New York with her husband and two young sons. She has a master's degree in international political economy and has lived abroad on three separate occasions. Her artistic background includes a year of film school in Madrid, Spain, and work in advertising in marketing in Miami, Florida now recommitted to her fine art practice. She was a 2022 Aspen Art museum artist fellow, had a November, 2022 solo show at the art base in Basalt, Colorado, and is currently showing work at Anderson Ranch Arts Center in Snow Mass and the Aspen Chapel Gallery in Aspen, Colorado. Shauna Miller, it is with great pleasure. I welcome you here to the space. So thank you for being here.

Shawna (03:43):

Thank you. It's real.

Carin (03:46):

Yes. I'm so excited to be here today and I'm so excited to get to know you in this way and to hear more about your work and your practice. So that was your formal bio, but can you just tell us your, today you're accessible, you're where you are right now, description of what you do and who you are, well, what you do, who are you as an artist? Let's boil it down.

Shawna (04:08):

I mean, my today bio is different than my yesterday bio. Right? Right. It's funny because I just had a call this morning that I do weekly with my online artist network and we were going through our elevator pitches, so we were discussing what that is and writing down notes and jotting down ideas. And it's one of those exercises that you never want to do, and then you do it and you're like, oh, thank God I did this. Because we're always growing and things are always changing. And so for the first time I wrote down, I am an interdisciplinary artist. I'm like, okay, well, I get to own this new title now and grow into it because it took me long enough to own the title of artist as it was. So now it's just moving right along. Yeah,

Carin (04:59):

Isn't that amazing that it just continually keeps transforming and as soon as you, I feel like it's motherhood in a way, as soon as you feel like you put your finger on it, that it's like I'm transforming again,

Shawna (05:09):

Something else. Yep.

Carin (05:12):

Totally amazing. So interdisciplinary. Are there other ways that you would describe you and your art practice today?

Shawna (05:19):

No, just that it's in fluxx at the moment. I am a figurative painter and I will remain a figurative painter, but that's being married with a new way to express myself and express what I have to share and where I want to go because the VR component is, I don't know if we mentioned that I'm working into virtual reality who dimensions is not enough. I'm going into three

Carin (05:46):

More.

Shawna (05:49):

And the reason for that is because I've always been really interested in immersive experiences and the entry point for large scale installation work is difficult. It's high. It requires a lot of money and resources and it's heavy load on the environment. And with VR technology now, you can have that immersive experience without anything physical involved. It's just bits and bites and a headset. So it really kind of opens up the possibilities in new ways that I'm so psyched to explore. It's just a whole new world. So I'm just getting started,

Carin (06:33):

Actually a whole new

Shawna (06:35):

World. I'm just getting started and I'm learning the softwares that I need to know to make what I want to make. And yeah, it's just fun at this point. It's exploration and fun, and I know where I want to go with it, but I also realize that new ideas will come along as I go, and that's just a fun spot to sit in.

Carin (06:55):

Yeah, wow. I love the discovery that's present in that and also the permission that you've given yourself almost just from all the other work that I do as a spiritual director, just knowing the level of safety that it takes to allow ourselves to learn something new. You've done a lot of work there to allow yourself to master one medium and completely shake it up now and to allow yourself to learn something and not only learn something new, you're not going from oil painting to watercolor or something like that. You're going to an entirely different with all different skillset, all different, I mean, really technology and tools as well. So that's wild. So just to commend you on that as well, is that approach as far as your willingness, your excitement for discovery, your excitement for learning and just jumping into something new, is that similar to when you approached painting your oil painting or is that a different, does it look different?

Shawna (07:52):

That is an interesting question. I think it's a little different because painting for me was kind of returning to an old friend, but an old friend that I had a lot of baggage with. Whereas VR is something brand new. It's like meeting a new friend. So yeah, it's different.

Carin (08:17):

Yeah, I believe it. And you were also in such a different stage of life when you were returning to that old friend also. Yes. So to also acknowledge that you have much different needs on your process also.

Shawna (08:29):

Good point.

Carin (08:31):

And what you're looking at and what you're wondering at and discovering also. So this kind of permission to learn and to wonder and to discover also just tells me that there's probably a lot going on in your current phase of life that allows that and makes that possible.

Shawna (08:46):

Yeah. Well, I think there's a certain comfort level with my art practice because I've been at it now for seven years and I've learned so much along the way about myself and why I'm doing it and why it matters. And so I just bring a different level of awareness. Yeah, I think that's what you said. Yes. I love it.

Carin (09:07):

Yes. So going back to painting was like an old friend, and also I didn't know this about you, but your master's degree in international political economy, you have backgrounds in many different things. I mean, you said, you mentioned a reluctancy to owning the artist title, the artist's word. Can you give us a little bit of insight into what it's looked like for you to become artist or turn to art as your primary work and medium of being?

Shawna (09:35):

Yes. I think that I will probably say things that everyone else would say in that regard. It was never considered a viable career path for obvious reasons, honestly, in terms of fine art. And I think maybe for that reason I didn't pursue it sooner. I think there were other reasons too, though. I just have really wide ranging interest. So I didn't do any of those other jobs or careers for lack of creativity. It was more because I really had interest in all of those fears. And it wasn't until motherhood that I realized it's time to go back. I think I always knew that my art practice would be there for me, I call it art practice. I feel like maybe just calling it art. Art is there, you can do it whenever you want. You don't need anything special. You pick up a pencil, you do it.

(10:36):

And I knew that that was always an option for me. I wasn't ever ready to go full force into it because I think, I don't know why. I mean these divergent interests and also kind of imposter syndrome probably from my youth, motherhood changed all that because it lit a fire under me in terms of time realizing the time is short, no one has less time than a new mother and and yet here I was saying, well, I have no time. I better paint. I better make some time on a fit air and do this thing. And it had to do with being seen. And what I thought of it, I thought of it as I being seen by others. That is really what motivated me initially to paint the subject matter that I painted was this desire to be seen by others. But in the process of that, I realized, oh man, this really has more to do with me understanding myself and seeing myself for who I am. Absolutely. On multiple levels actually. Yeah,

Carin (11:51):

Absolutely. That makes so much sense, especially too with your subject matter. I mean, being a young mom and also being a new mom and looking at motherhood so intense that it makes sense that your access point was like, oh, this is getting me seen by others. But then that there's this deep connection. I mean, hours and hours and hours in the studio with yourself hours and learning what you're doing and learning what you're approaching and all of that, that there builds this access point to the deep connection within yourself being seen by you and that that's such a massive, oh my goodness, knowing that art would always be an option for you, but then being able to be like, actually, this is what I'm going to do and this is what I'm going to spend my time on. That pivot like, oh my goodness, the trust that in their self that it took, and then also the trust that it builds. Like, oh my gosh, I have my own back. I'm doing something for me. I'm doing something that I want to, not that you didn't want to do all of those things before and it wasn't for you, but that's very intense. That's a very intense bridge to build to that self, that connection with self.

Shawna (13:04):

Yeah, I hadn't really thought of it that way in the past. I thought of it as almost like a, there's this word trence where you just change after childbirth, something physiologically changes. And I felt like that definitely happened, but

Carin (13:27):

That happened

Shawna (13:32):

For good, obviously.

Carin (13:34):

Yes, yes,

Shawna (13:35):

Absolutely. It's just more like who I am and what I have to offer and who I'm supposed to be.

Carin (13:41):

Yeah. I feel like too, so many times the people that I talk to, our final, okay, I give in, this is a title I'll use for myself. This is an identity that I'm going to embrace so often comes out of a desperation or a complete reset or something like that.

Shawna (14:00):

I identify with that completely because even as a child, people would say, oh, you're going to be an artist. And I was such a naysayer. I was like, no, no way. Because that's what my mom did some of the time. She did many things, but among them, she was a portrait painter. And so to me it was like, well, that's not special. My mom does. It seemed like the least interesting thing somehow, even though I love watching her work, it's not that I thought there was no value in that. I don't know. I guess I was trying to differentiate myself, individuate, of course. And so yes, of course I kept pushing away from it. But then anytime I found myself in a situation throughout my years, whether it was post-college or high school or whatever, art was what I would fall back on. Fallback meaning just like it was always there. If something wasn't working out, I could say, well, lemme just do it this way. And I would throw some creative spin on it and turn it into what I knew how to do, and it always worked out. So it's funny to finally embrace, okay, this is who I am, this is what I do.

(15:22):

And those things being kind of one in the same.

Carin (15:25):

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that's the thing is that artists as identity and wiring and artists as profession and career, I feel like it's one of those things that is so closely intertwined. And I think that there are a few other things that are so closely intertwined in that maybe musicians and other creative things. This is just my theory though. I have no idea, but that it is, it's what you do and also who you are and how you're wired. I identify with that so much as far as when I was young, people would ask, what do you want to be when you grow up? And it was always, I mean, sometimes it probably was astronaut and stuff like that, but it was usually artists. I just loved drawing, loved drawing, loved coloring. And at some point too, art was where I received a lot of praise too. And so that reinforced that as well. But finding myself exploring different modalities and how it shows up. So even now, so I initially was a dancer big time. That was my first paid gig, was teaching children how to dance and doing private lessons and that sort of thing my body gave out. So having to pivot, that's when I pivoted to photography. So just seeing, I just resonate with that of how it really does feel like it is something that is just so innately how I'm wired.

Shawna (16:45):

Totally.

Carin (16:45):

And it comes out in everything. That's why I always own the primary artist identity, even though right now I am in a slow period of creation. I haven't created in a number of years in the way that I desire to and really struggle with still maintaining that I am artist thing. But it comes out in how I approach people's podcasts. It comes out in how I approach spiritual direction. It's the way that I'm wired. It's

Shawna (17:10):

Just how we live our lives.

Carin (17:12):

Yes. So tell me a little bit about, let's go microcosm first and then maybe that'll take us back to how you live your life too. But tell me a little bit about your process, keeping in mind that you have a massive pivot in medium right now, or a massive, I don't even want to say pivot, because that sounds weird. A kind of

Shawna (17:35):

Just

Carin (17:35):

Expansion. Yes. A continuation of your practice, and you're going into a different form. How would you describe your process, maybe generally, or if you want to hone in on one of the medias that you use?

Shawna (17:47):

Well, I can talk about everything to date, at least for the last six, seven years. And that is, I start with a vision in my mind of what I want to portray and why. And in the past that has been motherhood involving models, many of whom I know, some self-portraiture as well. I start with photography because these all involve children. So getting a live model is not an option.

Carin (18:20):

They are on the move.

Shawna (18:24):

And so the photography process is the first step. Take lots of pictures, I examine them, I hone in. I look for what feels right to me in terms of, I don't know if I even want to call it narrative, but just the sensation that I want to convey. And then I go to work painting. I take that picture and transfer it somehow onto either linen or I do some charcoal on paper, whatever medium feels right, mostly just oil and charcoal, and I go to work painting that image. And that is in itself a meditative process. And there's been a lot of learning over the years in terms of capturing skin tones and layering paint and all the technical aspects of oil painting. I mean, the learning process is the whole story in itself, because there was these moments where I was just like, ah, it's not doing what I want it to do. And so much frustration. And I just had to double down on patients and realize these things happen on their own timeline. And I'm fortunate for that patience because it's what allowed me to kind of work at my own pace and then stand back and see what does this all mean? And that's where I found extra meaning in the work. If I'd rushed through it, I don't know if I would've found that. I don't know. Yeah.

Carin (20:03):

Wow. I'm also really struck that as a new mom, you're also engaging a process that takes so much patience.

Shawna (20:10):

Yeah. I know

Carin (20:11):

You're just being pressed in on patience on every level and angle, huh. But I love that you said that it was in more of a meditative way. So even in that sense, you may have more of a presence, more even control in what you are able to access in that space versus the forced patients and presence that can come with toddlers or small children.

Shawna (20:33):

Completely. Yes. That's a different kind of patience. It's like a grit, your teeth kind of patients. Yeah. Yeah. No, both kinds of patients I think came into play sometimes, but I'm

Carin (20:47):

Sure you mentioned that you start with this image, with this idea of what you want to convey. But then you said that there's also this, so when you're looking through the images and stuff, you're using your intuition to find something that otes the sensation that you're looking to kind of give, right? Yeah. What are some of those or or those sensations that you desire to either put into the work or that a viewer may receive out of the work?

Shawna (21:14):

Well, I would say it varies.

Carin (21:17):

Is it piece by piece or what does it look like?

Shawna (21:20):

It does vary piece by piece. Although there are some commonalities and themes that emerge, I'm certainly capturing connection and closeness, but not in a saccharin way. I want it to feel real. It has two sides to it. So yeah, there's something beautiful about breastfeeding your baby, but then they grab up and latch onto your other nipple with your hand, and it's not entirely pleasant. So there are all these moments in mothering that test your patience and your willpower. And I want that to be seen because I think it makes it more meaningful.

Carin (22:18):

Yeah,

Shawna (22:18):

Absolutely. If it's all just this sort saccharine beauty, then well, how lovely. It must be easy, but of course it's not. So I'm hoping to capture the reality, the two sides of it more often than not. And also with a focus on the experience of the mother, because I think so much art throughout history has been about children. You see the mother gazing at the child, but you don't see the mother interrogating the viewer being like, here I am. This is me.

Carin (23:02):

Yes.

Shawna (23:03):

So that was really the impetus in the beginning when I started, was to do that kind of work to say, notice what she's doing, see her labor,

Carin (23:15):

And so powerful, especially in a

(23:19):

Cultural, I'm going to shout a couple of things out, and you may have a lot more knowledge than me on this with your background and your research for the work. But in a cultural context where, and I'll name where we are. We're in the modern United States, that there's so much emphasis put on the children, even in the hospital, so much emphasis put on the child's health. Our maternal death rates are very high for a country like ours, all of that. So the mother can often be the overshadowed labor, like you said, the laborer that is simply bolstering up the child and their future. And I don't know, I can't speak for other cultures. I will speak for this, the one that I am in. But that's so pervasive, I think, in this culture. Absolutely. That the mother can become this invisible martyr almost. And we're all like, oh, you sacrifice so much. And it's like,

Shawna (24:16):

It's just lip service.

Carin (24:17):

Oh, it's so gross. Yes. It's so gross.

Shawna (24:20):

Yeah. I mean, just look at postpartum care. It almost doesn't exist. And that's when you're bereft, you have no idea what to do with these children. It's like, oh, god. And no one is there to tell you what to expect from your body or how long it takes to heal. It's all this culture of snap back into your pre-pregnancy genes,

Carin (24:46):

Get your body back. Oh my God.

Shawna (24:49):

Or a million different things, and just platitudes about, yes. Yeah. About child. And it comes from, it's part of the culture. Absolutely. And I think that older women can sometimes be some of the worst because they have forgotten. They remember the beautiful moments. I mean, I think there's a reason those stick in our brains and we forget the hardship. But when you're in the hardship, you're in it. And there's nothing anyone can say to sort of soothe. You just have to live it.

Carin (25:29):

Yes. It's so hard. And there's a reason the species has lived on, we don't relate. Exactly. Remember those, right. Exactly.

Shawna (25:34):

You forget. Yes. Oh, birth. Oh, yeah, I can do that. That's

Carin (25:36):

Fine. I know. Oh, yeah. That's not as bad as I remember, or I don't remember how bad it was. Absolutely. And so much too of, it's amazing. You said sometimes the older women are the worst about it. It was amazing to me when I was, there's just not a lot of space either for shared experience or to talk about these things. Sure. There's these mommy groups and mommy blogs became a massive thing in the two thousands that there really isn't. So when I was pregnant with my daughter, everyone that has had a child would tell me all about their pregnancy and their birth story, and I would get so annoyed with it. And I was like, oh my God, why are these people unloading on me? Because of all the other work that I do. I'm like, I have very serious boundaries about when people get to unload on me.

(26:29):

And I'm like, why are these people unloading on me? And I'm like, oh, we don't have anywhere to tell these stories. Exactly. People don't ask after the first six months after having a child. People don't want to hear your birth story. People don't care. And usually it's only people that are thinking about having kids or trying to get pregnant or something like that, that will ask. So if you're not around people in that stage of life, you're not able to tell your story. So there is this major, almost censoring of the mother, especially early motherhood experience in our culture.

Shawna (27:01):

Totally.

Carin (27:02):

And an amnesia around what it really looks like. Also.

Shawna (27:06):

It's true. I hadn't thought about the fact that those two things coexist, a censoring and then an amnesia. And why is that? Yeah.

Carin (27:16):

So I love that you turned to painting in a way to be seen. You wanted to be seen by others, but such a massive part of the work that you created is also being seen, also seeing others. You said such a massive intent was that mothers would be seen also in their experience and in a real experience. There is beauty here, and there's also a lot of hardship. This is very challenging. And so I just think that that's really beautiful. So is that always a part of, so even with the virtual reality set that you're looking at and this new form of creating, is that connection a foundation of your work? Or do you have some broader themes that are intense behind what you're exploring?

Shawna (28:05):

No, I'm moving in a broader direction in terms of exploring themes that are important to me. And I think when it's said and done, you'll see a through line between this early work dealing with motherhood, and I am sure what will come next. And part of that has to do with just how I've moved on in this phase of life and in embracing the title of artist and what that means and what it could mean.

Carin (28:41):

Yes.

Shawna (28:42):

So I'm interested in moving into this space that I'm calling it bridging the gap between the sacred and the profane.

Carin (28:53):

Wow.

Shawna (28:55):

That inspires this feeling of awe. As we were doing our, like I mentioned earlier, the elevator pitches, right towards the end of our little session. They said, now, if you were sort of in a conversation with someone, what would your hook be? What is your conversational hook? And maybe this is a question. And so I was like, oh, wow. And that got me thinking. So I wrote down this question of, have you ever had an art experience that kind of took you out of yourself? Because I have, and they're so inspiring, and they inspire me to want to make those experiences for others. So that's what I'm aiming for. We'll see.

Carin (29:45):

I love it. I love it. I just resonate with that so deeply in different ways and on different levels. As far as part of what led me to the spiritual direction space, which are spiritual, emotional experiences, was I was always trying to create in my art something that would be similar to that awe or that worship experience in a religious setting, but taking it out of a church or an institutionalized space. And so being experimental photographer, there's so much power in color, in texture. So creating these vessels that people can pour into that hopefully would create this emotional experience and spiritual experience. It's funny how that spiritual direction and that art are always, they're the same. They're the same. They are.

Shawna (30:30):

They're the same. And I remember as a child having these experiences in nature at

Carin (30:34):

Work, yes.

Shawna (30:35):

That just knocked my socks off.

Carin (30:39):

Yes.

Shawna (30:40):

And then, I dunno, somehow just in growing up and the busyness of daily life and becoming a grownup, and it just gets kind of shoved to the back of your brain somewhere. It just in your memory bank. And there are fewer experiences or fewer moments in time where you take the time to feel awe and wonder, but it really rewires us when we have it. And yeah, I'm looking for that.

Carin (31:13):

Yes. Oh my gosh, I love it. I also, my brain's going in a million different directions as far as specializing with folks in deconstruction and a lot of folks working with a lot of folks that come from institutional religious spaces and desiring that connection and that awe, and that no matter what they call it, if it's universe, if it's energy, if it's just earth, if it's any of those things, and I just talked to a psychologist last week about finding those experiences through sensory kind of trainings, using that rewiring and that healing to create kind of these experiences. But that's still a little bit different than just this awe, so love that you as an artist are trying to recreate these spaces. And also makes me wonder, I love that you bring up the experience in nature because those words, the sacred and the profane, make me wonder at your own, do you have a religious background or is it mostly naturalists?

Shawna (32:11):

No,

Carin (32:13):

I love

Shawna (32:13):

It. I was raised evangelical until I was about 14. Well, I think even before then I kind of had a fissure with the evangelical faith, and then I had some exposure to Episcopalian faith as well. I ended up going to a university that is affiliated with the Episcopal church. It's not a religious school, but it does have a divinity school for Episcopalians. So there were a number of Episcopalians there, and then my grandparents were Episcopalian, but those were two very different worlds between the Evangelical and the Episcopal. But Christian, yeah, all the way through and now something of agnostic really. Yeah.

Carin (33:10):

Gotcha. So then can you tell me, just indulge me for a moment and then I promise I'll get back on track, but you and I could chat about this for hours, I'm sure. As you tell me that word, sacred and profane, what does sacred mean for you? What are you exploring in this?

Shawna (33:24):

Truthfully, the answer that I have is going to sound so wonky. Wonky in a psychoanalytic way. I think of it as the space between words, between experience and language. You could call it the gap. You could call it ineffable. We have words for almost everything, and yet there is something more that can't be grasped with language. I realized this when I was in Spain actually, and I was living in my second language and there was poetry, and I understood that I would never really know the full meaning of the poetry because it wasn't my language. And then I realized even if it were my language, I couldn't understand the full meaning. And so in that is, I don't know, it's a productive space for wonder and gray zone and what's in there. I don't know.

Carin (34:49):

I love in that description too, it just hits me that it's so important that you're, like you said, two dimensions wasn't enough, that you're adding a dimension. It feels so like, oh my gosh, that makes complete sense, because you're trying to describe something. You're trying to create an experience around something that we have no power to describe or, but then also, so you're adding another dimension. But then it's also contrasting as far as like, oh, we can't do anything to get nearer, but we try so much, and so let's add this dimension and this sensory, but also this sensory experience through which we can make more sense

Shawna (35:28):

Of

Carin (35:29):

Things than we can through things like our abstracted, I mean, very abstracted things like language.

Shawna (35:37):

But

Carin (35:37):

To take us back a little bit, I wonder at, this is going to be another small question, but you've alluded to this a number of times as far as what your process and your creation does for you, but do you believe that you access healing, transformation, growth, whatever the word is for you, through creating, what does that look like for you?

Shawna (36:02):

A hundred percent. I mean,

Carin (36:06):

Yes,

Shawna (36:07):

No doubt in so many ways. I mean, just the act of sitting and working is itself. It's a meditation on the present moment. I have to be completely present to the task, and then beyond that, when I step away from the work that I do, sometimes I see meanings that I didn't intend or that I didn't know were there, and that's amazing. That's like my subconscious working through my conscious mind, my body to deliver a message. It's nuts.

Carin (36:52):

It's wild.

Shawna (36:54):

So yeah, I mean, I would never stop. I don't want to stop, but at this point, I cannot stop because there's just so much information to be gleaned and healing to be had. Really. Yes,

Carin (37:12):

Yes. Absolutely. That's beautiful. That's so beautiful. Do you feel like within your work there's an offering or an access point of healing or transformation or connection or whatever the word is for other folks? I hope so. We already talked about connection.

Shawna (37:26):

Yeah. I mean, there certainly is for me. So my hope would be that that just kind of shines through. Yes, absolutely. That other people can access it too, see something of themselves or their own story, their own experience in the work. I love it.

Carin (37:46):

I love it. Shauna, is there else you want, is there anything I missed, or is there anything else you want to share with us today about your work, your process, how it allows you to access healing and healing for others?

Shawna (37:59):

I think I've said lots. I think you have

Carin (38:02):

Also, I love it, and I'm grateful.

Shawna (38:06):

Yeah. I mean, you ask wonderful questions. Oh, thank you. It's been such a journey to look at my art practice in that way. I think that because of the work I do, which is technical in nature, it can be easy to kind of just get bogged down in the, what am I doing? Is it titanium white or is it flake? All these details, which they have their own beauty, but also it's not why we make the work we make. Yeah. Right.

Carin (38:41):

Absolutely. I love that. Thank you. How can people follow you in your art journey and your person journey? All of it? How can people get in touch with you if they'd like to?

Shawna (38:51):

Well, the easiest way right now is through Instagram. That's at Shauna Miller Studio. That's S H A W N A, and then my website of the same name, shauna miller studio.com is under construction. It doesn't yet exist. I know today as we're recording this, but it's coming along hopefully late June. I'm thinking it'll be live.

Carin (39:18):

I love it. Perfect. Then that should be live for when we're airing this potentially or soon.

Shawna (39:22):

Yeah. We'll see.

Carin (39:24):

It's all a

Shawna (39:25):

Process. Right.

Carin (39:26):

Well, Shauna, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing so much of you, your practice, your journey, your art, your process, all of the things with us today. I know that we are all, I don't want to say the better for it, but we are all more expansive because of it. Thanks. Right. Thank

Shawna (39:42):

You. You're a gift.

Carin (39:45):

Oh, thank you so much. It was a gift to be with you today, so thank you.